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Richie · 09-02-2008, 11:53 AM

Don't you think we have heard enough already? Every time I come across one of these stories I think to myself "Will they ever give up?".

At least none of the members on here will be promoting areas like Madrid, so it isn't too bad, I suppose!

One bit of good news for the dozens of you that promote property in Cabo Roig on the Costa Blanca though, Cabo Roig was voted as one of the safest places in the world to invest or purchase a property! With prices continuing to rocket even with the slow down worldwide - Cabo Roig is still in huge huge demand and prices show no sign of stopping!

Alright if you have a spare million to buy a villa!

Homefinder · 09-03-2008, 02:57 PM

Richie - You mention some good news (i.e. Cabo Roig, Costa Blanca). Why don't you tell us more about that!
The BBC is never going to stop because good news simply does not sell newspapers or, in this case, create traffic.

With all respect to "Auntie BBC" she has actually got it wrong this time. Madrid, more than anywhere else, definitely needs affordable accommodation. Sesena might be a ghost town right but that is understandable considering that Spain (and the rest of Europe) is rushing headlong into the worst recession since World War II.

In the end it will all turn round and we will start over. When that happens Sesena will still be there. Modern buildings do not deteriorate overnight, especially unfinished ones.
When its is all over the Madrilenos will have their affordable accomodation, in fact it has already started to happen -

Quote:

Monica Torremocha Orocco is one of few who is interested in moving into the area. She says that rents there have fallen by more than 400 euros in a month.

If you have seen the stuff on BBC in the past few days it is clear that Auntie has enough "news" on her own doorstep with Darling warns of economic crisis and Pound falls to new lows.

Homefinder

Richie · 09-03-2008, 04:17 PM

Very true, my other halfs sister lives in Madrid and that is one thing they are extremely short of. She is 37 and lives with 3 or 4 other women in an apartment in central Madrid, has has a really good job working for the BBVA bank in Madrid and to my knowledge all the others are teachers, Nurses, etc - but all of them simply can not afford to buy anything in or around Madrid and don't think they ever will be able to. Have you seen house prices in Madrid?

We have recently got a couple of channels back on our Telmicro Levante system, which only has BBC world news, Sky News and a couple of poor movie channels - it is kind of depressing watching UK news because of how the media spin it, and because you hear it so much you begin to believe it!

I will try and find the article on Cabo Roig, it is by Kapital which is a big investment magazine in Norway apparently - but I know what Cabo Roig is like, the Russians are buying there big time, some without even seeing the properties. But unless you have millions you can't touch it! It is a really nice area, when you have a house there you know you've made it!

Homefinder · 09-03-2008, 05:28 PM

Logically, with property value ups and downs, there is never an end and everything just goes round.
Right now the people in Madrid just cannot afford the properties and, with inflation, unemployment and cautious banks, they are going to be able to afford them even less in the near future.
Meanwhile Madrid is one area that does have a housing shortage (as opposed to a surplus) and the Madrilenos have to have a roof over their heads.
1,000's of unsold dwellings are jut too big an asset to leave sitting there considering that there is an eager market nearby. So, quite simply, the developers have to reduce prices or the banks will forclose on them and sell (or rent them) at reduced prices.
Whatever happens, this is one place where it should work out OK eventually.
That is why I say that the BBC got it absolutely wrong and should have gone on about an area with a housing surplus.

Homefinder

MAone · 10-30-2008, 03:21 PM

THe BBC and all newspapers, not just tabloids, are equally to blame, yet there are Homes from Hell programmes regarding british property and demolitions of illegal property in the UK too yet they get much less publicity....... but this is not paradise and there are things that go against all natural justice, let alone human rights.

Personally what I find most difficult is that goal posts move all the time where spanish officialdom is concerned and there is no one straight answer. There must be in law of course but it is so loosely interpreted...........and the Junta de Andalucia and its town halls are the worst offenders.........with laws being made retrospective which makes an entire mockery of the law....how can you make a law and then make it retrospective? It does not seem to be a defence that you complied 100% with the law in existence at the time.......and were not psychic! For instance Ley de Costas.......

Homefinder · 10-30-2008, 04:31 PM

I would like to make a couple of points here -

Quote:

. . . and the Junta de Andalucia and its town halls are the worst offenders . . .

The is an article about the demilition in Vera (Almeria) which quotes the J de A's answer to the European Parliment's request for information.

Quote:

The ruling declared the license invalid because it demonstrated the existence of a urban nucleus on land classified as not for urbanisation, having also been shown that the house was not designated for agricultural or similar purposes as specified by the law applicable to land not for urbanisation.

The J de A claimed that the town hall of Vera had no authority to grant a building licence on rural land (outside it's PGOU) and such buildings may only be used for agricultural purposes.
At the end of their answer they explained -

Quote:

Finally it should be noted, that in the Spanish legal system, many mechanisms are provided for individuals who suffer damage or injury caused by third parties, being private persons or public entities, by exercising various legal actions that will allow them to win compensation . Among them, it is stressed, is the right of individuals to be compensated for the functioning of public administrations in the manner provided by Article 139 and onwards of Law 30/1992 of the Regimen of Public Administrations and the Common Administrative Procedure. In implementation of that provision, if the Priors consider that they have suffered losses or damages because of the invalid license, they may exercise the corresponding liability action against the Municipality of Vera for having granted the license declared invalid by the final judgement of the Court.

6 months on from that we see that the J de A is attempting to leagalise as many properties as possible by allowing the various town halls to extend their PGOU's retrospectively.
The Full Article: Demolition in Vera (Almeria)

Another point -

Quote:

It does not seem to be a defence that you complied 100% with the law in existence at the time.......and were not psychic! For instance Ley de Costas.......

There have, in fact, been 2 "Leyes de la Costa" and I think that Spain has realised that they made a mistake in the first place by allowing "front line" building.
These things happen all the time and governments have to have a means of appropriating land for public use. Also it has to be born in mind that this law, in most cases, permits owners to continue to use and enjoy their properties for 30 years more and pay them compensation as well.
Here is an example of how it works for public good. During the late 1970's the Bar/Restaurant "Antoniet" was built, quite legally, on the rocks at the end of Moraira (Costa Blanca) beach.
The Town Hall recently appropriated the land, Antoniet was demolished & relocated to premises in Moraira town centre, now we have the "Iron Man of Moraira" instead and the area has been returned to public use.
I am not saying that Antoniet was an eyesore but the Iron Man is much better - what do you think?

Most people in the area, including nearby towns, have nothing but admiration for the Teulada-Moraira Administration as they are turning Moraira into an absolute gem from what used to be a "pig's ear". Lots of us have had our "frustrations" with the town hall but most of us agree that it has all ben worthwhile and this was confirmed by an absolute majority at the last local election which was contrary to the general swing as they are PP.

Homefinder.

sharonthompson · 10-31-2008, 02:45 AM

Quote:

what do you think?

I think I'll stay in rented accomadation what with iffy planning permissions and nose diving prices.

At least we know that our 2 bedroom log cabin is legal!

MAone · 10-31-2008, 04:36 PM

These things happen all the time and governments have to have a means of appropriating land for public use. Also it has to be born in mind that this law, in most cases, permits owners to continue to use and enjoy their properties for 30 years more and pay them compensation as well.

I agree with you to a point as the eyesores should not have been allowed, but the examples you quote are not in Andalucia. Also it is not true that compensation is being paid at a market rate. Compensation is much talked about but is only the catastral value of a property not the market value so the owners are still losing out through no fault of their own! If the owners were properly compensated then fine but I have never heard of a case where the compensation has allowed an owner to purchase a comparable property, in terms of quality, as sea views may well not be possible after so many years of development, bearing in mind these were fully legal when purchased. If you know of one please let me know.

As for the Priors, it would have been simple to rectify - the Junta sent the local police to see them instead of corresponding with the town hall when the house was being built and long before it was finished. If the Junta knows about a property being built that does not comply with legislation then they should send a representative from the provincial office (not the Ayuntamiento) direct to the house owners/builders and put a paralizacion order on it. Its another case of Spain not have any forethought - how can so many houses have been built illegally over so many years without any appropriate action AT THE RIGHT TIME? Now the Priors have years of battle ahead of them with all the stress etc and discomfort of their current living arrangements.

Yes, the Junta are trying to put it right where they can but the property owners will have to pay for the infrastructure etc, even though they believed it was included before as nearly all the builders and developers are long defunct............do you have any idea how much those costs are? Generally from 20000 up to 100,000 euros per household and if the owner cannot pay the house is appropriated by the town hall and sold on with monies going to the town hall...... I am not plucking figures from the air, these are sums mentioned in official correspondence between town halls and home owners.......

It is now safe to buy in Andalucia provided you know that the Junta has passed the property or the development.......but there is a huge and painful legacy from the past and it is true that only non PSOE Town Halls are currently being targetted and their residents made to pay a higher price than others...........

Homefinder · 10-31-2008, 06:15 PM

MAone - Thank you for your interesting reply.

As a moderator I notice that you have never submitted an "Introduce Yourself" post. It might be a good idea if you did that, then the members would know a little more about you, where you are located, you experience etc.

This thread is actually about bad press but we are talking now talking about illegal building, demolitions, town hall corruption etc. and this could prove to be a long and interesting thread.
If it gets going I will start another thread and move everything relevant there.

Getting along with my reply -

Firstly I have to state that I am extremely interested in the prior case and in fact I wrote the articles - Demolition in Vera (Almeria).
One thing I could never get to the bottom of: The J de A, according to their reply to the EP, certainly informed the Vera Town Hall in good time that they considered the Prior's building licence to be invalid but I cannot find out if the Prior's were informed at that stage by Vera or the J de A.
The J de A actually had a court sentence against Vera in less that a year of the issue of the building licence. Once again, were the Prior's informed?

Then reading between the lines my guess is that the J de A was extremely "put out" by the fact that many town halls within its jurisdiction were issuing illegal building licences and they may have been setting an example by demolishing the Prior’s house.
I suspect that this is the case because of the speed in which the answer to the EP was published and they manner in which this was written. It would seem that both a legal mind and a journalist worked on it because it seems to be both readable and legally correct. Perhaps the J of A commissioned it long before the actual demolition?
Also worth noting is the fact that, in the last paragraph, they put the blame squarely in Vera’s court and have even suggested that the Prior’s proceed against Vera for compensation.

Quote:

As for the Priors, it would have been simple to rectify - the Junta sent the local police to see them instead of corresponding with the town hall when the house was being built and long before it was finished. If the Junta knows about a property being built that does not comply with legislation then they should send a representative from the provincial office (not the Ayuntamiento) direct to the house owners/builders and put a paralizacion order on it.

The J de A could not do that because only Vera town hall has jurisdiction over its local police but they may have had some other way. We just don’t know what they did.

Also worth noting is the fact that the J de A was already implementing its Decreto 218 which will do a lot to prevent illegal buildings from being sold or re-sold.

Andalusia is by no means the only autonomous region where this kind of thing has occurred. In fact it is happening all over Spain and it is possible that there are even more instances in Valencia than Andalusia.

As serious as this all may seem, I don’t think that we are seeing any more than the tip of the iceberg here. The J de A said –

Quote:

The ruling declared the license invalid because it demonstrated the existence of a urban nucleus on land classified as not for urbanisation, having also been shown that the house was not designated for agricultural or similar purposes as specified by the law applicable to land not for urbanisation.

There are thousands of “viviendas” in the countryside of Spain located outside of the PGOU’s. My understanding is that they are only legal if occupied by people working a farm, for housing animals and the storage of agricultural tools and machinery.
Now it may be possible to get permission for change of usage after claiming “squatter’s rights” or that the change of usage is acquired over time but Spanish law makes a simple statement – vivendas are only permitted within the casco urbano and that is what the PGOU is all about.
A higher authority even than the Kingdom of Spain has ruled on the way Europeans shall live and that their homes should have certain elements of infrastructure – drinkable piped water, electricity, accessible roads, etc. and most important of all a sustainable means of sewage disposal (not a septic tank and soak away).

Maone said –

Quote:

Yes, the Junta are trying to put it right where they can but the property owners will have to pay for the infrastructure etc, even though they believed it was included before as nearly all the builders and developers are long defunct............do you have any idea how much those costs are? Generally from 20000 up to 100,000 euros per household and if the owner cannot pay the house is appropriated by the town hall and sold on with monies going to the town hall...... I am not plucking figures from the air, these are sums mentioned in official correspondence between town halls and home owners.......

A very valid point, but does the buck stop with the J de A or any other autonomous government? I think not! The ones to blame are in Madrid for allowing the contstruction boom to run out of control and lack of discipline by the town halls all over Spain.
Now the whole country and many of the foreigners have to pay a terrible price for the government’s folly. I am not only referring to those who will lose their homes or have to pay over the odds but also those who will suffer during the inevitable economic recession.

Quote:

Compensation is much talked about but is only the catastral value of a property not the market value so the owners are still losing out through no fault of their own! If the owners were properly compensated then fine but I have never heard of a case where the compensation has allowed an owner to purchase a comparable property, in terms of quality, as sea views may well not be possible after so many years of development, bearing in mind these were fully legal when purchased. If you know of one please let me know.

No argument there generally. However, I think that the owners of Restaurante Antoniet in Moraira were happy with their deal. I shall have to ask them.

Homefinder

Girasol Homes · 11-03-2008, 12:38 PM

Hi everyone, apologies for not being about but our 6 of the best mini campaign has made my life a busy one. We have had the usual negative press and try to ignore it but what we generally say, to anyone with half a brain is this (from a recent press release)

Nigel Salmon, MD, summarized, “this crisis has provided a very lucrative opportunity for everyday people to get ahead either for permanent living or for investment. Real estate investors and buyers all over the globe know this to be true; many people make the mistake of investing when the media tells you it is ok. What they do not realise is that is when the masses come back into the market the deals are not there anymore. When demand goes up so do prices. I have seen it in the 1980’s, 1990’s and the beginning of this century and it is always cyclic and always the same. So if you are in the market, possibly sitting on the fence or can’t wait for the market to come back, you should start looking for the golden opportunities in Spain and the islands, we have seen it and it is there right now.”

Also - what we have seen selling is generally properties for residential occupation or restorations, and when we source properties from our partners these are what we look for.

For everyones information, we will launch our mortgage sites this week, and if you are a quality client you will still get a mortgage.

Best wishes

Nigel