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07-15-2008, 11:29 AM
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#1 (permalink)
| | Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 29
| Accreditation of International Real Estate Professionals Hi,
Please grant me the opportunity to introduce our company, Certification Accreditation and Dissemination S.L., an organization set up and officially registered to audit, assess and record.
I write to make you aware of an initiative that we have recently launched and which I feel may be of interest to your members / users. The initiative is called “AIREP” or “Accreditation of International Real Estate Professionals”, and our principle objective, is to show consumers investing in overseas property, just “who” meets the mark.
What AIREP isn't:
AIREP is not a club, association, federation or other self governed body of real estate agents.
What AIREP is:
AIREP is entirely independent and assesses and certifies legitimacy and capacity of international real estate professionals.
Above all, AIREP is dedicated to bringing standardization and transparency to what is sometimes a very murky, difficult to understand and opaque international real estate industry.
These days, the press and more so the internet, are full of people and companies selling real estate or real estate related products overseas, but which of them are actually qualified or even legally allowed to do so? Many belong to associations or federations of one type or another, but which of these bodies have any real authority or legitimacy in the country in which the person or company operates, or where the consumer wishes to acquire real estate?
AIREP accreditation is designed, to enable real professionals that trade legally and who have legitimate qualifications, to be able to demonstrate this to the consumer, and for the consumer to better understand the legality and capacity of the persons, or companies, offering their products and services.
After assessing information about a professional or company, (including amongst other factors, compliance with local laws, qualifications granted in or recognised by the country in which they operate or where they sell property, and demonstrable experience within the international real estate sector) AIREP awards pertinent certification where it proceeds.
It is also worth mentioning that to give its AIREP accredited real estate professionals a head start within an ever more competitive industry, and property buyers, a safer place to search for their property, Certification Accreditation and Dissemination S.L. have recently acquired TheBigMover.com property portal. read more……
Accreditation costs start at just 350 euros per year (for autonomous professionals and small companies). The first year's accreditation also requires a one off 50 euro fee for the initial assessment.
The actual accreditation process works in the following way:
1. The applicant pays the initial assessment fee and supplies the required documentation (the assessment fee is non returnable whether the applicant qualifies for accreditation or not).
2. We put together a detailed report about the applicant, and assess if same qualifies for accreditation. A copy of this report is made available to the applicant.
3. The applicant pays the accreditation and registration fee.
4. We proceed to register the accreditation of the applicant in our archives, we add their particulars and details of their accreditation to our web based directory and send certification of their accreditation for them to display publicly in their place of work. We also register the applicant for the services exclusively available to AIREP professionals on TheBigMover.com property portal. read more…….
As an incentive for Spanish Real Estate forum users to acquire AIREP accreditation we propose a discount of 20% on their first year's accreditation fee.
Please let me know if you would be interested in helping us with this initiative.
Kindest regards,
Matthew Fitzpatrick,
Chief executive officer
Certification Accreditation and Dissemination S.L. Accreditiation of International Real Estate Professionals - AIREP
www.airep.co.uk |
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07-18-2008, 01:22 PM
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#2 (permalink)
| | Advanced member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 117
| Qualifications and Expertise Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew Hi,
Please grant me the opportunity to introduce our company, Certification Accreditation and Dissemination S.L., an organization set up and officially registered to audit, assess and record.
I write to make you aware of an initiative that we have recently launched and which I feel may be of interest to your members / users. The initiative is called “AIREP” or “Accreditation of International Real Estate Professionals”, and our principle objective, is to show consumers investing in overseas property, just “who” meets the mark.
What AIREP isn't:
AIREP is not a club, association, federation or other self governed body of real estate agents.
What AIREP is:
AIREP is entirely independent and assesses and certifies legitimacy and capacity of international real estate professionals.
Above all, AIREP is dedicated to bringing standardization and transparency to what is sometimes a very murky, difficult to understand and opaque international real estate industry.
These days, the press and more so the internet, are full of people and companies selling real estate or real estate related products overseas, but which of them are actually qualified or even legally allowed to do so? Many belong to associations or federations of one type or another, but which of these bodies have any real authority or legitimacy in the country in which the person or company operates, or where the consumer wishes to acquire real estate?
AIREP accreditation is designed, to enable real professionals that trade legally and who have legitimate qualifications, to be able to demonstrate this to the consumer, and for the consumer to better understand the legality and capacity of the persons, or companies, offering their products and services.
After assessing information about a professional or company, (including amongst other factors, compliance with local laws, qualifications granted in or recognised by the country in which they operate or where they sell property, and demonstrable experience within the international real estate sector) AIREP awards pertinent certification where it proceeds.
It is also worth mentioning that to give its AIREP accredited real estate professionals a head start within an ever more competitive industry, and property buyers, a safer place to search for their property, Certification Accreditation and Dissemination S.L. have recently acquired TheBigMover.com property portal. read more……
Accreditation costs start at just 350 euros per year (for autonomous professionals and small companies). The first year's accreditation also requires a one off 50 euro fee for the initial assessment.
The actual accreditation process works in the following way:
1. The applicant pays the initial assessment fee and supplies the required documentation (the assessment fee is non returnable whether the applicant qualifies for accreditation or not).
2. We put together a detailed report about the applicant, and assess if same qualifies for accreditation. A copy of this report is made available to the applicant.
3. The applicant pays the accreditation and registration fee.
4. We proceed to register the accreditation of the applicant in our archives, we add their particulars and details of their accreditation to our web based directory and send certification of their accreditation for them to display publicly in their place of work. We also register the applicant for the services exclusively available to AIREP professionals on TheBigMover.com property portal. read more…….
As an incentive for Spanish Real Estate forum users to acquire AIREP accreditation we propose a discount of 20% on their first year's accreditation fee.
Please let me know if you would be interested in helping us with this initiative.
Kindest regards,
Matthew Fitzpatrick,
Chief executive officer
Certification Accreditation and Dissemination S.L. Accreditiation of International Real Estate Professionals - AIREP
www.airep.co.uk | Hi Matthew,
Does your organisation have the knowledge to properly assess the compliance of agencies in fulfilling regional and national legislation on the minimum requirements to operate as agencies? I'm not sure from what you've described exactly how you would manage to possess the expertise required to accurately and fairly assess the "legitimacy" of a professional real esate agency anywhere in Spain.
As an agency with offices in Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia, Malaga and Bilbao, what are the specific pieces of legislation that you would need to consult to undertake the assessment and certification you propose? This would be a good starting point
Kind regards,
Miguel
Last edited by Miguel Lameiro; 07-18-2008 at 01:25 PM.
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07-18-2008, 01:24 PM
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#3 (permalink)
| | Advanced member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 117
| Copy of accreditation logo (forgot to include it in my earlier response...with the items indicating compliance with the local laws, etc., as the basis for the question posed earlier).
Kind regards,
Miguel |
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07-18-2008, 04:47 PM
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#4 (permalink)
| | Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 29
| Hi Miguel,
Basic accreditation shows (amongst other things) that at the time of assessment a professional is authorized by the administration to carry out his activity, that he is not bankrupt, that he has no problems with the tax man, that he has no industry related civil or penal proceedings pending, that he has no problems with local authorities, that he has no problems with autonomous authorities, that he has not filed for administration and that he pledges to abide by current and future laws (including local ones) related to his activity
Day to day compliance with legislation that dictates how the professional goes about his activity is a separate matter.
For example, a person or company who meets the requirements to open and operate as a real estate agent in Andalucia can be accredited. This accreditation helps differentiate the accredited agent from those who the Junta knows nothing about and who tend to trade out of their bedrooms or garages and meet for visits in bars or at the roadside.
Of course in Andalucia once the agent is up and running he must then follow directives such as the BOJA 218 which entails amongst other things the providing of vital information to the consumer about the properties he has for sale. The agent must obtain the relevant information about all and every property that he offers for sale. Obviously we cannot check at every moment that an agent is conforming to the BOJA 218, it would be impossible, and to do so we would have to site a representative in the offices of every accredited professional.
Our code of conduct however insists in its point 4.1 that:
“Accredited professionals must comply with the laws and regulations relating to real estate professionals in force within the country in which they are established or operate at any given time.”
and in its point 2.2 that
"On receiving a sales instruction, accredited professionals are obliged to make the necessary inquiries concerning the object of the instruction."
Should an accredited agent be reported to us for non compliance with the BOJA 218 then their accreditation could be revoked.
Unfortunately we cannot guarantee the day to day compliance with directives as it is also impossible to guarantee that an accredited professional is honest and hard working.
Our Assessment involves (depending on personal or company):
Checks with the Merchants registry
Checks with CNAE
Checks with social security
Checks for existence of bankruptcy or if the company has filed for administration
Checks to see if there have been incidences with the tax man
Checks to see if there have been incidences with the administration of the Autonomous region
Checks to see if there have been incidences with local authority
Checks to see if there are any civil or penal legal procedures pending
Checks upon company directors
Credit checks for risks and solvency
And if required checks with RAI
We feel that AIREP accreditation gives guarantees to consumers which they are unable to obtain anywhere else, existing forms of accreditation and certification are too generic and many associations and federations require little more from their members than a compromise to an ethical code and the membership fee.
If you have any other questions about our company and what we do, then please do not hesitate to put them to me.
Kindest regards,
Matthew Fitzpatrick,
Chief executive officer
Certification Accreditation and Dissemination S.L.
Tel: SPAIN 902636344 UK 08717802820 Accreditiation of International Real Estate Professionals - AIREP |
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07-18-2008, 05:15 PM
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#5 (permalink)
| | Advanced member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 117
| Hi Matthew,
Thanks for your response. My concern is to find any claims on legitimacy and accreditation when indeed there is no basis for claims of the sort. My second concern is in finding it necessary to correct misconceptions that exist from the miscommunication of accreditation or legally-related aspects. For this same reason, for example, the citation in the response (with the reference to "BOJA 218" as it relates to Andalucía, is of serious concern). The legislation is published in a the boja, simply the Junta Bulletin, and it relates to Decreto 218/2005, the true and correct title of legislation. The confusion is important and it is easily a point that is distributed and creates confusion and misinformation. A professional agency will be accountable to the law, and it is necessary to be precise and accurate in the terminology and aspects covered and mentioned.
Your response helps in determining the extent of your accreditation title as an independent private company.
Lastly, my concern is highly focused when it relates to presentation information that is not of relevance or importance particularly when agencies have a significant amount of legislation that is required for true and correct compliance under the law. And despite my expertise in regional Andalucian legislation, I am making reference to national legislation and requirements, such as LOE 1999, RDL 1/2007, RD 515/1989, as well as the Civil Code. Regardless of the region of operation of an agency in Spain, it is imperative to understand and operate within the requirements of said legislation.
It is in this manner the true interests of fellow professionals in real estate are protected and carefully represented. If this level of expertise and attention to detail is overlooked, then there is simply much ado about nothing, and, worse still, the generation of busywork that does not save professional agencies from true compliance issues that, under the RDL 1/2007 of Spain, for example, can result in serious fines of thousands of euros. Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew Hi Miguel,
Basic accreditation shows (amongst other things) that at the time of assessment a professional is authorized by the administration to carry out his activity, that he is not bankrupt, that he has no problems with the tax man, that he has no industry related civil or penal proceedings pending, that he has no problems with local authorities, that he has no problems with autonomous authorities, that he has not filed for administration and that he pledges to abide by current and future laws (including local ones) related to his activity
Day to day compliance with legislation that dictates how the professional goes about his activity is a separate matter.
| The distinction you make is questionable and misleading, for the requirement of civil or penal proceedings and other items is tied directly to the day-to-day activities of a profession. If a professional abides in day-to-day compliance, then it is the precursor to avoid the resulting legal proceedings you cite. These are not separate matters of concern. Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew
For example, a person or company who meets the requirements to open and operate as a real estate agent in Andalucia can be accredited. This accreditation helps differentiate the accredited agent from those who the Junta knows nothing about and who tend to trade out of their bedrooms or garages and meet for visits in bars or at the roadside.
| Matthew, are you aware of the legislation and requirements in Spain for operating as a real estate professional? Can you please cite and explain the distinction you mention here. Indeed, there is no stipulation or distinction as you cite with those who operate from home. These are mute considerations. Please explain and I will respond with the answer to the question I post here. Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew
Of course in Andalucia once the agent is up and running he must then follow directives such as the BOJA 218 which entails amongst other things the providing of vital information to the consumer about the properties he has for sale. The agent must obtain the relevant information about all and every property that he offers for sale. Obviously we cannot check at every moment that an agent is conforming to the BOJA 218, it would be impossible, and to do so we would have to site a representative in the offices of every accredited professional.
| As mentioned above, the citation of BOJA 218 is a serious misnomer on the true title of the law, which confuses the title of the bulletin where the legislation is published (known as the BOJA) and the title of the legilation in question, which is, in the case you mention, Decreto 218/2005. These are important considerations, given that precision is required. Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew
Our code of conduct however insists in its point 4.1 that:
“Accredited professionals must comply with the laws and regulations relating to real estate professionals in force within the country in which they are established or operate at any given time.”
and in its point 2.2 that
"On receiving a sales instruction, accredited professionals are obliged to make the necessary inquiries concerning the object of the instruction."
Should an accredited agent be reported to us for non compliance with the BOJA 218 then their accreditation could be revoked.
Unfortunately we cannot guarantee the day to day compliance with directives as it is also impossible to guarantee that an accredited professional is honest and hard working.
Our Assessment involves (depending on personal or company):
Checks with the Merchants registry
Checks with CNAE
Checks with social security
Checks for existence of bankruptcy or if the company has filed for administration
Checks to see if there have been incidences with the tax man
Checks to see if there have been incidences with the administration of the Autonomous region
Checks to see if there have been incidences with local authority
Checks to see if there are any civil or penal legal procedures pending
Checks upon company directors
Credit checks for risks and solvency
And if required checks with RAI
We feel that AIREP accreditation gives guarantees to consumers which they are unable to obtain anywhere else, existing forms of accreditation and certification are too generic and many associations and federations require little more from their members than a compromise to an ethical code and the membership fee.
If you have any other questions about our company and what we do, then please do not hesitate to put them to me. | The list of checks you mention here are more in line with a credit check, solvency review or criminal record investigation than any element of professional compliance. The AIREP accreditation is indeed generic in nature and does not reflect the true elements to consider when operating with a real estate profesional. How are the points considered in your listing of importance to the operating elements of a real estate professional when protecting the interests of buyer or vendor clients? Again, please contrast these requirements with Spanish legislation stipulations on the minimum requirements for operating as a real estate professional in Spain.
Before signing off, please accept my apologies for the constructive criticism of what is offered by your firm. However, having seen the need to personally and professionally rectify the many misleading elements presented by would-be experts, I am obliged to vouch for the interests of all real estate professionals, regardless of their location. Indeed, my perspective is one of understanding the law in Spain, and not simply my own regional location in Andalucía. Many hard-working people come from abroad to work in real estate in Spain, and they are not always aware of the true nature of the law and are at times presented with important elements of misinformation that I find professionally troublesome.
Kind regards,
Miguel |
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07-18-2008, 06:06 PM
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#7 (permalink)
| | Advanced member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 117
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie | Hi Richie,
First, let me say that I don't like mute issues and impossible-to-monitor or unverifiable information (as with the true legitimacy of a professional in a given field). And, I have spent months correcting many misconceptions from service providers who don't understand the law and simply make things up (often leading people down a garden path that results in a lot of lost time and unrecoverable costs). When I spot misleading claims, I become a very steadfast individual in uncovering what is not up to snuff. If possible, I try to vouch for the interests of real estate professionals to help make sure that issues are never overstated, nor understated, and always precise.
Second, it is perfectly fine for an association to exist. Essentially, an association or federation can legitimately state that its members abide by a code of conduct, for example. Anyone can state that a Code of Ethics is in place and must be observed. Great stuff. By the way, under the law, if a professional voluntarily assumes the responsibilities and obligations under a code of ethics of an association, then she or he is liable under the law. Essentially, the code of ethics becomes a law for that professional.
Third, any element of accreditation must be founded on true and correct requirements of accreditation. What is cited above is a laundry list of credit checks and criminal reviews. It is as more important for a company to undertake such checks on clients who buy products or services from your company, or you are going to depend on a provider for parts in manufacturing, etc. For example, Ford Motor Company will perform a credit check on your company before awarding a multi-million contract for the provision of nuts and bolts (you will sell them the nuts and bolts for the production of cars). In this case, Ford wants to make sure you are solvent and they can depend on you (given you aren't going to go bankrupt and leave them stranded without nuts and bolts for their cars....essentially stopping their production line). Returning to the topic at hand, the elements cited above are not in any way special considerations for the real estate sector.
Fourth, in addition to ensuring that any accreditation be tied to true legislative and professional requirements, it is imperative that a true audit be performed on the specific issues (protocols, documents, etc.) that attest to the true candidacy and awarding of the status of accreditation. Indeed, onsite audits or reports are required (much in the same as with accounting audits, etc.). Without this, you cannot claim any element of accreditation based on standards of the industry or government legislation. To claim you abide by a Code of Ethics is fine, but you cannot claim compliance with laws unless you undertake an audit as per the legal requirements outlined. I trust the distinction is clear. Hence, any association is fine to have its rules, but another is to claim that a professional indeed observes the Government's laws/rules/regulations, particularly if there is no mechanism for audit and compliance.
Hope this helps.
Miguel
Last edited by Miguel Lameiro; 07-18-2008 at 06:46 PM.
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07-20-2008, 03:10 AM
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#8 (permalink)
| | Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 29
| Hi Miguel,
I welcome constructive criticism, but would say that you are being just a little more critical than constructive, and this concerns me.
Article 3 of the Royal Decree-Law 4/2000 23th of June published in the Boletin Official del Estado says (excuse me for my crude translation):
Conditions for exercising the activity of real estate intermediation.
The activities detailed in the article 1 of the decree 3248/1969, 4th of December, for which the regulation of the official college of real estate agents general commission is approved can be carried out freely without the necessity of being in possession of any title at all, or without belonging to any official college.
Artícle 1 of the Royal Decree-Law 3248/1969, 4th of December published in the Boletin Official del Estado reads something like this (once again excuse me for my crude translation):
The mediation and negotiation in the following operations are exclusive to real estate agents:
a) The buying - selling and exchange of rustic and urban properties.
b) Loans with mortgage guarantee upon rustic or urban properties.
c) Rentals - leases of rustic and urban properties, along with the concession of same.
d) Attend consultations regarding sales values or concessions of leases of properties which are referred to in the previous three points.
This would mean that the only requirements to operate as a real estate agent in Spain are those imposed upon any unregulated activity, registration with social security and the tax man. We can without a doubt accredit that an estate agent meets the legal requirements to trade, and any statements to the contrary are false, and indeed misleading.
Further to verifying that an agent meets the legal requirements to trade we carry out a series of checks upon him and his activities (these checks vary depending on company or autonomous):
Checks at the Merchants registry
Checks with CNAE
Checks with social security
Checks for existence of bankruptcy or if the company has filed for administration
Checks to see if there have been incidences with the tax man
Checks to see if there have been incidences with the administration of the Autonomous region
Checks to see if there have been incidences with local authority
Checks to see if there are any civil or penal legal procedures pending
Checks upon company directors
Credit checks for risks and solvency
And if required checks with RAI
It worries me that you mention in a reply to the forum moderator that:
“It is as more important for a company to undertake such checks on clients who buy products or services from your company”
Miguel we are talking about consumers spending hundreds of thousands of euros on properties, in a place / country where many such consumers have been ripped off by unscrupulous estate agents, do really think that checks / accreditation of clients as opposed to checks / accreditation of estate agents is the way forward?
Of course, any person who meets the legal requirements to trade as an estate agent in Spain, and who qualifies for our AIREP accreditation could go on to infringe laws such as that commonly known as BOJA 218 (we’ll come to that later), just as the holder of a driving license could infringe road traffic laws. However the existence of road traffic laws does not diminish the right to drive or the legitimacy of his license just as the existence of the BOJA 218 does not diminish the agent’s right to trade or his AIREP accreditation.
On the subject of what is commonly known as BOJA 218, this is I understand the continuation or elevation of the other laws that you quote “LOE 1999, RDL 1/2007, RD 515/1989”, and all are related to consumer protection and the supply of information regarding the object which an agent offers for sale. I reiterate what I said in my previous post, this directive is observed on a day to day basis, and its existence does not in anyway diminish the legal right for a person to trade as an estate agent, just as a speed limit does not diminish the legal right for a driving license holder to drive.
When I refer to the directive as the BOJA 218 you take me to task for incorrect terminology, does this in someway diminish the validity or usefulness of AIREP accreditation? I chose to use the commonly used terminology because I feel that by doing so all of those who read these posts will understand. I know that using terms and words that although correct, nobody understands, can make one seem important and well informed, but me, well I still to prefer to call a good old Canis lupis familiars a dog. If we are to nit pick you refer to the BOJA as “just simply the Junta Bulletin” when it is in fact the Boletin Oficial de la Junta de Andalucia or the Official Andalucian Junta Boletin. I would hate anybody to think that because of a misnomer “just the Andalucia boletin” anything published in it is in any way unimportant.
I am concerned at the frivolous, misleading and confusing statements that you make within your posts and your eagerness to erode the validity of AIREP accreditation. When asked by the forum moderator about associations such as Federation of British Estate Agents in Spain (FBEAS) and Association of International Property Professionals (AIPP) you go on to say:
“By the way, under the law, if a professional voluntarily assumes the responsibilities and obligations under a code of ethics of an association, then she or he is liable under the law. Essentially, the code of ethics becomes a law for that professional.”
Under what law exactly does an association’s code of conduct become a law? What sort of law does the code of ethics become for that professional? And what are the penalties for not complying with it? Please let me know where I can find documentation to support or better understand your statement. I would point out that the moderator did in fact specifically ask you about :
“associations such as Federation of British Estate Agents in Spain (FBEAS) and Association of International Property Professionals (AIPP)”
After a brief look at the websites of the entities mentioned it can be ascertained that the first is not an association at all but a limited company and the second it seems is an association constituted in the UK and not Spain. Those reading what you say, could be forgiven for thinking that they, or in fact any entity named association or federation, not only lays down a code of ethics but in fact makes law. I think that you should clarify if the code of ethics put forward by the 2 entities specifically mentioned by the moderator would be considered law in Spain. It surprises me that you venture to make such impudent comments especially when just a few lines above you state:
“I have spent months correcting many misconceptions from service providers who don't understand the law and simply make things up “.
Another of the statements which seems to be made for no other reason than to eat away at the validity of our initiative is:
”Third, any element of accreditation must be founded on true and correct requirements of accreditation. What is cited above is a laundry list of credit checks and criminal reviews.”
“Sited above” were the checks that we carry out upon AIREP accreditation applicants. Accreditation is “founded upon true requirements of accreditation” and the cited checks are part of these true requirements, I am unable to ascertain whether they are correct or not as I am unaware as to what measure of correctness you use, mine, yours or the catholic churches? The snipe about the “laundry list of credit checks and criminal reviews” is in my book very low indeed.
For your information, your company IBERICA CONSULTING & INSTITUTE EUROPA SL could qualify for AIREP accreditation. Although the name suggests consulting it’s registered activity is CNAE 74403 Marketing directo y promocional, or to roughly translate, publicity, and specifically direct marketing, it does however sell its products to the real estate industry so we could give it the basic approved accreditation with a scope of “Real estate related Publicity”. Let me know if you are interested.
If it is your desire to be constructive, then I welcome your comments and would be happy to dialogue with you. It is very likely that you could teach us a thing or two about the laws and directives in Spain and specifically Andalucia. If you only wish to criticize and aim to erode the validity of our initiative then I am sure that you have your reasons.
Kindest regards,
Matthew Fitzpatrick,
Chief executive officer
Certification Accreditation and Dissemination S.L.
Tel: SPAIN 902636344 UK 08717802820 matt@airep.co.uk Accreditiation of International Real Estate Professionals - AIREP |
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07-20-2008, 04:22 AM
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#9 (permalink)
| | Advanced member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 117
| Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew Hi Miguel,
I welcome constructive criticism, but would say that you are being just a little more critical than constructive, and this concerns me.
| Hi Matthew,
My criticism is fair and constructive and questions the exact nature of the services you provide, particularly in view of the claim that a real estate agency's accrediation and compliance with local laws is reviewed. Thus, my original questions posed are directly concerned with the nature of your audits and expertise regarding precisely the legal compliance claimed by your AIREP accreditation, risking the notion that it is indeed simply AIRep. Your checks for accreditation are not particularly helpful to a client-consumer, for they are simply credit checks and criminal activity checks. And the main claim of concern on the compliance with local laws, has yet to be resolved, for the list of checks does not indicate a fair and balanced assessment of your AIREP accrediation on this basis.
I continue with responses below. Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew
Article 3 of the Royal Decree-Law 4/2000 23th of June published in the Boletin Official del Estado says (excuse me for my crude translation):
Conditions for exercising the activity of real estate intermediation.
The activities detailed in the article 1 of the decree 3248/1969, 4th of December, for which the regulation of the official college of real estate agents general commission is approved can be carried out freely without the necessity of being in possession of any title at all, or without belonging to any official college.
Artícle 1 of the Royal Decree-Law 3248/1969, 4th of December published in the Boletin Official del Estado reads something like this (once again excuse me for my crude translation):
The mediation and negotiation in the following operations are exclusive to real estate agents:
a) The buying - selling and exchange of rustic and urban properties.
b) Loans with mortgage guarantee upon rustic or urban properties.
c) Rentals - leases of rustic and urban properties, along with the concession of same.
d) Attend consultations regarding sales values or concessions of leases of properties which are referred to in the previous three points.
This would mean that the only requirements to operate as a real estate agent in Spain are those imposed upon any unregulated activity, registration with social security and the tax man. We can without a doubt accredit that an estate agent meets the legal requirements to trade, and any statements to the contrary are false, and indeed misleading.
| Yes, this is the Real Decreto Ley (from 2000) that I make reference to in my earlier post. As you can see, then, your accreditation is not required, given that anyone can practice as a real estate agent in Spain. By the way, you will find another piece of legislation to this effect published in 2003 (1 out of 2 is good). I'll re-state my question, then, as alluded here and in earlier posts...."What basis does the AIREP accreditation have for assessing the legitimacy or practicing as a real estate professional in Spain? Is it not a mute concept? Furthermore, are not the items involved in your check list merely equivalent to the type of credit check, for example, that does not reflect in any special way the nature of the real estate industry?" Please expand on these points if desired. Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew
Further to verifying that an agent meets the legal requirements to trade we carry out a series of checks upon him and his activities (these checks vary depending on company or autonomous):
Checks at the Merchants registry
Checks with CNAE
Checks with social security
Checks for existence of bankruptcy or if the company has filed for administration
Checks to see if there have been incidences with the tax man
Checks to see if there have been incidences with the administration of the Autonomous region
Checks to see if there have been incidences with local authority
Checks to see if there are any civil or penal legal procedures pending
Checks upon company directors
Credit checks for risks and solvency
And if required checks with RAI
It worries me that you mention in a reply to the forum moderator that:
“It is as more important for a company to undertake such checks on clients who buy products or services from your company”
Miguel we are talking about consumers spending hundreds of thousands of euros on properties, in a place / country where many such consumers have been ripped off by unscrupulous estate agents, do really think that checks / accreditation of clients as opposed to checks / accreditation of estate agents is the way forward?
| Matthew, I kindly re-state my question: "How does your checklist provide any guarantees on protecting consumer interests or consumer rights?" There is no causal relationship in your claimed checklist for accreditation and true professionalism or compliance and ethical work habits. Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew
Of course, any person who meets the legal requirements to trade as an estate agent in Spain, and who qualifies for our AIREP accreditation could go on to infringe laws such as that commonly known as BOJA 218 (we’ll come to that later), just as the holder of a driving license could infringe road traffic laws. However the existence of road traffic laws does not diminish the right to drive or the legitimacy of his license just as the existence of the BOJA 218 does not diminish the agent’s right to trade or his AIREP accreditation.
| Matthew, the holder of a driver's license has had to pass an official theoretical exam and a practical exam, both of which are DIRECTLY and SPECIFICALLY RELATED to the act of DRIVING a motorised vehicle. Your checklist is a mere laundry list of extraneous irrelevant criteria that have NOTHING to do with the act of SELLING or RENTING property in Spain. Furthermore, the Dirección General de Tráfico not only is concerned with the RELEVANCE of the accreditation process in awarding a drivers license, but also ENFORCES the correct observance of the requirements, laws and regulations. Your organisation fails to do so. Lastly, the Dirección General de Tráfico is duly authorised and concerned with the correct compliance issues, demonstrating the necessary EXPERTISE in the field. I fail to see the necessary expertise and attention to DETAIL in your organisation, given the serious errors and misnomers and misleading claims put forth. Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew
On the subject of what is commonly known as BOJA 218, this is I understand the continuation or elevation of the other laws that you quote “LOE 1999, RDL 1/2007, RD 515/1989”, and all are related to consumer protection and the supply of information regarding the object which an agent offers for sale. I reiterate what I said in my previous post, this directive is observed on a day to day basis, and its existence does not in anyway diminish the legal right for a person to trade as an estate agent, just as a speed limit does not diminish the legal right for a driving license holder to drive.
| Matthew, if you truly wished to ensure compliance in real estate, you would be familiar with the laws I mentioned. They are not all focused on consumer protection matters exclusively, but do indeed relate to the minimum knowledge requirements of an organisation that seeks to accredit real estate activities and compliance. Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew
When I refer to the directive as the BOJA 218 you take me to task for incorrect terminology, does this in someway diminish the validity or usefulness of AIREP accreditation? I chose to use the commonly used terminology because I feel that by doing so all of those who read these posts will understand. I know that using terms and words that although correct, nobody understands, can make one seem important and well informed, but me, well I still to prefer to call a good old Canis lupis familiars a dog. If we are to nit pick you refer to the BOJA as “just simply the Junta Bulletin” when it is in fact the Boletin Oficial de la Junta de Andalucia or the Official Andalucian Junta Boletin. I would hate anybody to think that because of a misnomer “just the Andalucia boletin” anything published in it is in any way unimportant.
| Matthew, the common term for Decreto 218/2005, de 11 de octubre, is indeed "DECRETO 218" at a minimum, plain and simple, and NOT boja218. There is no debate on this point. Precision is required, and the lack of observing it is of great concern particularly in view of the claims you make to the attention to detail in the accreditation process. Precision would have us say that legislation and matters of importance pertaining to the Junta de Andalucia are published in the BOJA (the Bulletin). Thus, Decreto 218/2005, de 11 de octubre, was published on Nov. 7th, 2005, in the BOJA, and more precisely still, in the BOJA number 217. Do you see then, the need for precision? You are quite precise in citing your article numbers (eg. 4.2, etc. etc), so please demonstrate the same level of precision when citing a law by its name. There are some laws that have common, unique references, such as the LOE, or the LOPD, or the LSSI, for example, but Decreto 218/2005 is not such a law. You will note, then, my ongoing insistence in referring to the Decreto with 218/2005, given that there are many other Decreto 218 from other years, for example. So, in short, boja218 does not relate at all to Decreto 218/2005, but rather relates to the volume number 218 of the BOJA bulletin of the Junta de Andalucia, published exactly on Nov. 8, when we limit ourselves to the year 2005, and there are many other Bojas 218s for various other years (it is helpful to consult http://www.juntadeandalucia.es/bojas/index.htm to appreciate exactly the serious blunder commited in the citation of Boja218 when referring to a law). Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew
I am concerned at the frivolous, misleading and confusing statements that you make within your posts and your eagerness to erode the validity of AIREP accreditation. When asked by the forum moderator about associations such as Federation of British Estate Agents in Spain (FBEAS) and Association of International Property Professionals (AIPP) you go on to say:
“By the way, under the law, if a professional voluntarily assumes the responsibilities and obligations under a code of ethics of an association, then she or he is liable under the law. Essentially, the code of ethics becomes a law for that professional.”
Under what law exactly does an association’s code of conduct become a law? What sort of law does the code of ethics become for that professional? And what are the penalties for not complying with it? Please let me know where I can find documentation to support or better understand your statement. I would point out that the moderator did in fact specifically ask you about:
“associations such as Federation of British Estate Agents in Spain (FBEAS) and Association of International Property Professionals (AIPP)”
| Any association, including your organisation can freely make use of a Code of Ethics. There is nothing else to add on this point. The associations mentioned indeed are set up on the premise of having a Code of Ethics and not much else. Your organisation claims to accredit the activities of the real estate professional, with a particular focus on compliance of local laws, etc. This is dramatically different and distinct. You cannot make this kind of claim, especially when my original question relates especifically to your organisation's expertise on such legal requirements (and I see that you are not aware of them or as precise as should be required and expected). I will give you a chance to demonstrate your expertise by citing the article and law you request on the applicability of a Code of Ethics on a professional who voluntarily abides by such a Code. Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew
After a brief look at the websites of the entities mentioned it can be ascertained that the first is not an association at all but a limited company and the second it seems is an association constituted in the UK and not Spain. Those reading what you say, could be forgiven for thinking that they, or in fact any entity named association or federation, not only lays down a code of ethics but in fact makes law. I think that you should clarify if the code of ethics put forward by the 2 entities specifically mentioned by the moderator would be considered law in Spain. It surprises me that you venture to make such impudent comments especially when just a few lines above you state:
“I have spent months correcting many misconceptions from service providers who don't understand the law and simply make things up “.
| Matthew, I will grant you the privilege of finding the legislation that cites this obligatory compliance when a profesional voluntarily adheres to a Code of Ethics. Should it be necessary, I will kindly post the reference myself. Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew
Another of the statements which seems to be made for no other reason than to eat away at the validity of our initiative is:
”Third, any element of accreditation must be founded on true and correct requirements of accreditation. What is cited above is a laundry list of credit checks and criminal reviews.”
“Sited above” were the checks that we carry out upon AIREP accreditation applicants. Accreditation is “founded upon true requirements of accreditation” and the cited checks are part of these true requirements, I am unable to ascertain whether they are correct or not as I am unaware as to what measure of correctness you use, mine, yours or the catholic churches? The snipe about the “laundry list of credit checks and criminal reviews” is in my book very low indeed.
| Matthew, my question stands: "What relevance does your checklist have in real estate? What special considerations does it present for the industry in question? Why are these criteria any different than those for the 'accreditation' of a laundrymat, baker, auto dealer, jewelry repair shop, travel agency, etc.?" Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew
For your information, your company IBERICA CONSULTING & INSTITUTE EUROPA SL could qualify for AIREP accreditation. Although the name suggests consulting it’s registered activity is CNAE 74403 Marketing directo y promocional, or to roughly translate, publicity, and specifically direct marketing, it does however sell its products to the real estate industry so we could give it the basic approved accreditation with a scope of “Real estate related Publicity”. Let me know if you are interested.
| Matthew, as a consulting firm, we indeed have multiple activities registered for our consulting services, amongst which you will find legal, labour, financial, marketing, IT-services consulting, and more. The listing you have consulted is limited to a single first activity, given that these public company reports and lists are indeed limited by scope and space. Our only requirements and compliance or accreditation specifications are dictated by the applicable legislation at hand. As a helping hand, I would kindly advise, after a quick perusal of your site, Accreditiation of International Real Estate Professionals - AIREP, that you ensure full LOPD and LSSI compliance. Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew
If it is your desire to be constructive, then I welcome your comments and would be happy to dialogue with you. It is very likely that you could teach us a thing or two about the laws and directives in Spain and specifically Andalucia. If you only wish to criticize and aim to erode the validity of our initiative then I am sure that you have your reasons.
Kindest regards,
Matthew Fitzpatrick,
Chief executive officer
Certification Accreditation and Dissemination S.L.
Tel: SPAIN 902636344 UK 08717802820 matt@airep.co.uk Accreditiation of International Real Estate Professionals - AIREP | Matthew, I do indeed have a desire to be constructive. I seriously and steadfastly protect and vouch for the interests of all real estate professionals. For this reason, if you are to claim that you accredit the compliance with local laws (as per your website and logo-chart, etc.), then it is imperative that you indeed have mastery of such legal requirements for compliance and fulfill the required periodic audits to ensure that such a claim is valid. Otherwise, a client will see your logo at the store front of a real estate agency, believe that they are fully compliant, as per your claims, and the truth is that this shall not be a true and valid claim. At most, the guarantee is simply that the agency is not in economic-credit trouble, etc. Lastly, and also of great concern, an agency may think that they are fully covered by your accreditation process, when indeed they shall be in breach of a significant number of laws relating to their real estate activities (and liable to inspections, consumer complaints and important fines and penalties under the law).
Hope this helps,
Miguel
Last edited by Miguel Lameiro; 07-20-2008 at 04:59 AM.
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07-20-2008, 08:42 AM
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#10 (permalink)
| | Just joined
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1
| In plain english without all your technical law terms I would like to know if the fbeas and aipp abide by the rules of Andalusian law for real estate agents? and also if you are part of any real estate society or association or what ever you want to call them if they hold any true value?
I have read this article and Miguel I do not understand a single word you are saying, very confusing like Matthew has said. It seems like you are scaring people out of using these companies and promoting your own, I would like an explanation please. |
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